Is Affiliate the most defensible channel? with Tye DeGrange

Dustin Howes: 0:28

Hey folks, welcome to affiliate nerd out. I Nerderator your , Dustin Howes. Spread that good word about performance marketing. You're gonna find me every Tuesday and Thursday here on LinkedIn live at 12.15 Pacific time, so please consider putting that on your calendar, smashing that subscribe button on YouTube and hanging out with us on the live chat I've got going on Today. My guest CEO of round bar labs is Ty DeGrange. He is a legend in this industry with a ton of experience. We shared some CJ time together and I'm super excited to get his input on affiliate marketing. Ty, welcome to the Nerditorium.

Tye DeGrange: 1:08

Thanks so much, dustin. Quite an intro and happy to be here. I'm grateful to chat with you today.

Dustin Howes: 1:13

Well, we had a mishap early on a couple months ago. You got sick on the last minute. Things are gonna happen like that. I'm just so glad and grateful that we rescheduled and had the time to do this. You instantly came in and we started nerding about baseball, and that is always a great start.

Tye DeGrange: 1:35

Yeah, I mean that you're rocking the will to thrill background. It's a great way to start the discussion.

Dustin Howes: 1:43

Some people. This background goes one of three ways Baseball nerd comes on and is that Will Clark, absolutely. Some people come on and they're like I hate Will Clark because they're Cubs fans. And then Mike McNerney, and then they're the third that actually love it, and then you're in that state. That's always a good start. So we're gonna have some live Q&A going on. Please drop any questions you have for me and Ty in the chat today. Our question of the day that I'm gonna put in the chat is affiliate the most defensible channel? Now somebody will argue that affiliate marketing is an A channel. I'm not gonna get into this argument right now, but is affiliate the most defensible channel? You tell me, tell me why, and then Ty's gonna get into it a little bit. But before we do, ty, who are you?

Tye DeGrange: 2:46

CEO of Rambarn Labs. We're a premium affiliate marketing agency. We also do paid search and paid social. Come at it from a very data rigorous perspective Been at the game of the agency life for 10 years now. I'm in Austin, texas. I absolutely love it down here Just enjoying dad life, my wife and two kiddos. I have a three year old daughter and a 10 month old boy Couple of lab mixes running around West Northwest Austin, so we're enjoying it. I'm actually here at Capital Factory in downtown Austin. A lot of good energy down here, so we've really enjoyed our time here so far.

Dustin Howes: 3:26

Oh, I would have wore my entrepreneur shirt from Capital Factory. I still have that from the days that WP Engine was in that office. It's really cool.

Tye DeGrange: 3:38

That's a great throwback reference. That's impressive.

Dustin Howes: 3:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was up on that top floor. They had a good thing going on in there and WP Engine was their first start up that really blew up, so that has a deep seated memory in my brain. That's awesome, very cool. Yeah, are you round Brookshaw over there? You guys have to be close.

Tye DeGrange: 4:04

Yeah, we've gotten together. There's a really good community here in Austin. We actually host a little happy hour quarterly and Brooks over in Dripping Springs area, which is even cooler and more remote than where I am, but he makes it into downtown on occasion.

Dustin Howes: 4:21

Yeah, that's right. Who's the other guy that's down in Dripping Springs? Can't remember his name. All right, moving on, if you would like to be my guest in the entire hot seat here, go to dustinhowes. com. Submit a topic that you'd like to nerd out about. I would love to have you on my show here. We are booked through February, but I'm always looking for new nerds to come on in. All right, let's talk about round bar labs. Give me some kind of name origin story. I have no idea how you came up with this company name.

Tye DeGrange: 4:59

Yeah, so my last name in French translates loosely to from the barn, so that was one aspect of it. And then where I grew up in Santa Rosa, sonoma County, there was an old round bar and literally within a stone's throw from my home and my family ranch and so it was a really cool memory to kind of connect to my family legacy and how I was raised around animals and the outdoors and in a cool area and the barns are really unique. I'm a mild architecture nerd and a mild history nerd maybe not so mild and there's a very few amount of these round barns. Sometimes they're octagonal in the ish and this one was very round, kind of a beautiful old structure from the late 1800s. You know, sadly we lost it in the Tubbs fire among other historical artifacts, but the memory and the tradition live on.

Tye DeGrange: 5:57

And the other cool thing is the round barns actually were more efficient so when they were introduced, versus rectangle barns, they were actually getting more area with the same material. So trying to kind of integrate a theme of efficiency and thoughtfulness to what we do is also part of it. So a lot of reasons behind it. Hopefully that gives people an idea of how the heck I came up with this. The labs part is also very important to me because the testing, the data, the experimentation is a huge part of how we think about growth, how we think about affiliate and partner marketing, how we think about paid, social and search marketing, how we think about a lot of things and even the name of our little pod always be testing.

Tye DeGrange: 6:42

So it's a very yeah, a lot of good meaning in that question.

Dustin Howes: 6:48

Love it. There's so much. I was raised on a farm so I am familiar with barns and I know how efficient it is to make a rectangle barn rather than a circle. I don't even know the logistics to making a brown barn. It sounds nearly impossible but it does make sense. But it is more efficient for forming one.

Tye DeGrange: 7:15

I think at this point barn builders are more in demand than marketers probably.

Dustin Howes: 7:21

Especially with these California fires. We got going on. We got lucky this year, though.

Tye DeGrange: 7:27

It was a good year.

Dustin Howes: 7:28

Yeah, absolutely All right so love the name, words and story. Tell us what you guys are doing and who you're serving out there.

Tye DeGrange: 7:36

Yeah, we've been fortunate to work on some really exciting brands, you know, metaquest, future, fit Hatch, grammarly, atlassian, jean, amifu. We've kind of realized that it seems like innovative brands view kind of like that $20 million a year kind of minimum threshold ideally Innovative brands is kind of what we're going after and who seems to be kind of connecting, clicking with what we're doing across the affiliate and supporting it with paid marketing. I would say that it definitely gears a little bit more towards direct to consumer and commerce. That's where most of our experience lies. There's a lot of excitement but we're very grateful and love the fact that there is some kind of diversification there and there's a good mix of brands. We've worked with a lot of early stage over our history and I think over time we've gotten more, you know, up stream as we've developed our systems and process and people. But yeah, that's kind of where we're at and obviously a huge element of that is leading with that affiliate partner marketing conversation which is near and dear to you and I and a lot of the audience today.

Dustin Howes: 8:50

Beautiful, All right. So the D2C market, 20 mil. You mentioned something innovative partners. Where does that fall in the realm of like top of the market product versus challenger product? Is that like in the middle? Where is it in the beta product?

Tye DeGrange: 9:07

Yeah, I think it's usually kind of a mix right. I think there's a number of factors we all look at to evaluate an opportunity, just like a perspective client's evaluating us and saying like where are these things that check off the box? And so I think we're trying to take that approach right Post product market fit, standing up some elements of paid marketing within the stack Maybe you know, as we'll talk about later like when is one ready for affiliate? You know it requires a certain level of maturity, as you know, and so I think once they reach that level of volume, traffic product market, post product market fit launching some demand gen or some paid marketing it really does signal that they're on the right track. I think one thing people often forget about is kind of like the, you know, monetization and retention pieces of the mix. If you don't have those things, it's difficult to really in the best really invest properly in acquisition and in the paid marketing.

Dustin Howes: 10:41

Gotcha All right. So when you're serving these clients, I've noticed around the internet that you've always are often talked about having a moat around your affiliate program and, like your affiliate program, is that castle. Can you tell us more about this theory that you have?

Tye DeGrange: 11:02

Yeah, I think I've enjoyed kind of progressing our thought process and writing through our flywheel newsletter and that's kind of helped formulate a lot of how, share out how we think about affiliate marketing and doing it right, doing it the right way, and also kind of having open dialogue with folks that have questions about how we approach things.

Tye DeGrange: 11:28

But to step back and think about it, you know, I think that you know Google and Meta are don't appear to be going anywhere.

Tye DeGrange: 11:36

I think it is an interesting concept, though, because they have and can essentially shut you down anytime they want to. Right, it's not common, it's not a super high risk for a lot of brands, but what I, what I view it as is affiliate offers a couple different things, and one of them is a kind of a moat opportunity where, instead of having all of your eggs in one basket or two baskets and we talk about this a lot in diversification of partners within an affiliate program, as you know, you've got your eggs in 10, 20, 250, 10,000 partners, but baskets much better protection in some ways. Is there risk with affiliate? Is there challenges in affiliate? Absolutely, but the other cool thing about affiliate is it's really it could be a really exciting trust mechanism because, yes, you can work with influencers and I kind of view those as part of one one large umbrella, and I think Google and Meta certainly have designed to kind of bring more of that into their ecosystem. Tiktok's actively done that really good job of that.

Tye DeGrange: 12:45

But you can't exactly acquire trust through Google just in a vacuum. You've got to do it through customer reviews and other mechanisms. You can't exactly acquire trust through Facebook, running Facebook ads, talking about paid marketing right, Whereas with affiliate you can acquire trust. You can get on CNN, you can get on a GIFC, you can get on consumer reports, you can get on men's health, you can get on Meredith's amazing properties. The list is immense in terms of cultivating and creating trust and really high quality content that is spread across a lot of different properties that could be evergreen. It could have all sorts of different tactics and strategies, deployed seasonally or using a mix of influencers or a mix of audio and video. I love how it's constantly changing. I love how it's constantly new partners to go find and acquire and court to bring into your program and I think it's a really nice diversification layer. As you've seen, and a lot of folks understand that, there are some brands that are getting 5% of revenue from affiliate, 10% of revenue from some, even a high as 30% of revenue from affiliate.

Tye DeGrange: 13:55

So what a nice diversification layer. Is it going to be your entire paid marketing mix? Absolutely not. Are you going to still want your Google and your Meta working and firing all cylinders? Absolutely, but in that sense I think it has potential to have more like tendencies and help and you can also learn it's on. You can get a so much tangible, valuable marketing business feedback from treating your partners like partners and your affiliate like partners as opposed to disposable. Dare I say it, some brands don't really see it long term, and so I think those that approach it long term, that care, that communicate, that really aim to strike up a mutually beneficial agreement that they can afford a sustainable and pay for, there's that. There's ways that can be more of a note versus other channels.

Dustin Howes: 14:50

For sure, and all on a performance basis, which is the most incredible part about what we do. And you bring up a great point about the ecosystem of Google ads. Or Facebook ads can be shut down at any time, and if you have a high percentage of your traffic coming to them, you're depending on those sales and the employees at your company are depending on them. And then Google decides to shut it down for a week for whatever reason. Like you are just hurting, and so the affiliate channel gives you that opportunity. Yes, and it does come down every once in a while, but so be it. It seems like a safer route altogether.

Tye DeGrange: 15:33

Well, there's another piece of that, too, where the likelihood of getting shut down is obviously low, but the likelihood of Timo coming in and spending six billion or whatever they did in 2023 is happening as we speak, and so that's a real life example where, yes, there are brands that are hypothetically in, in reality bidding up pricing in the affiliate marketplace. Quote, unquote Is it happening? Yeah, sure, but being able to pay on the performance basis, as you referenced, mitigates that risk, makes that a typically, I'd say, a top three efficient channel. So, another plug for this group, and sure, and tapping into affiliate if you can do it right. So I think that's another reminder that shutting down isn't always risk, but getting smoked on your CPMs and your CPCs by someone that's spending insane amounts could be more likely risk.

Dustin Howes: 16:35

Great, great call and looks like we've got a great question here from Gio, our boy from Las Vegas. What do you think Watch out? What do you think of brands and agencies that don't pitch new affiliates to help protect their programs? Awesome question, gio. What do you got Ty?

Tye DeGrange: 16:56

Don't pitch new affiliates to help protect their program. I'm not sure if I follow this question. I think it's too. It's too inside baseball. I'm just kidding.

Dustin Howes: 17:10

It is kind of worded a little bit awkwardly. Gio, you're going to have to work on your grammar. Let's put Grammarly on your computer please. It's one of your clients, right?

Tye DeGrange: 17:22

Yes, sir, good plug.

Dustin Howes: 17:25

What do you think of brands and agencies that don't pitch new affiliates to help protect their programs? So I think he's saying you have a good opportunity with one publisher that works for one brand, but you bring on another brand and you don't pitch that opportunity. Why wouldn't you?

Tye DeGrange: 17:47

Yeah, I see his follow-up. In other words, they only promote top affiliates. Yeah, interesting. I mean, I think it's a pretty significant miss and it kind of goes counter to what affiliate can provide. Is like this, really amazing long tail as well as a you know some really blue chip partners, if you will, as George is alluding to. You've got these top blue chip partners that you know a lot of brands are going to court. It's going to cost, you know, probably a higher flat fee or a higher commission at minimum, depending on who you're talking to.

Tye DeGrange: 18:27

So, yeah, I think it kind of calls out the notion of there's a lot out there in terms of creativity and mid to long tail partners to consider that people don't always think about. And so I think tapping into that, you know, looking at back links, there's almost like a little SEO strategy involved, right, like okay, discovery, you know, using, using the networks, use, tapping into influencers. So I'm curious to hear more of what George has experienced there, because I'm sure he has some knowledge of arms to share and others might have more follow-up questions on that. But that's my initial take.

Dustin Howes: 19:03

I have. I have some qualms about programs that won't allow me to be in their program or kick me out if I don't have any sales over an extended period of time. I think there's. I just think it's a bad practice and like busy work to kick folks out of your program just because they're not producing sales like you want them to. And I get it like maybe you do want to trim your program a little bit just to stay focused on your top partners. But at a certain point like you're really offending people that might be up and coming, that built some content around a product, and now you're kicking them out of the program for no real good reason. They didn't deserve it. But that's kind of a pet peeve when I see that email of hey, you're getting the boot.

Tye DeGrange: 19:55

You're not. I don't like it.

Dustin Howes: 19:58

Yeah, all right. Well, moving into, let's talk more about round bar and labs and how you guys utilize data. In your newsletter, you're constantly saying the use of data is incredibly powerful. Let's talk about how you guys use it for your clients.

Tye DeGrange: 20:19

Yeah, you know, I think there's different levels of data and I'll probably butcher some of the data speak, as our team is fantastic in their area, but I can speak to it, so you know you got to have that. I mean access, cleanliness, interpretation of it, and then it really comes down to what are you, what are you recommending to folks around it? I think that's the big miss that I think people often forget is that clients, people in the ecosystem, it's fine to here, you go, here's data or here's a lot of metrics, but you and me and everybody else in this ecosystem, they want to kind of simplify a story through the day. They want to understand what to do about we're down, we're up, we're flat. This is the trend over time. Here's some correlation analysis, here's some regression analysis. So those are things we think about.

Tye DeGrange: 21:21

You know, oftentimes in reviews, oftentimes in making a case to make a particular partner play or maybe change up commission structure or approach a new strategy or tactic with a program. You know we've really I think maybe it's because of the paid marketing part of the ecosystem around search, and social search in particular, is a very data, a hungry requirement to operate it, and you know we've had a number of practitioners over the years that care about data, take trainings, do SQL queries, understand databases, understand, looking at discrepancies between maybe what it's showing up for the brand and the retailer it might be slightly different than what's being shown in the SaaS network tracking and reconciling that and knowing that there's always going to be some gaps, but monitoring that delta and making sure that we're not too far afield and we're keeping a close watch on that and that kind of it's related to do. We have a healthy program as there are fraud issues involved. So I think generally the team cares. The team practices good data. You know standard operating procedures, but if you're not accessing it, it's not high integrity or clean data. It doesn't really matter what comes after that.

Tye DeGrange: 22:51

You kind of have to have that classic data best practice you know five step system in place, otherwise we're not really doing it at all and if one of those is missing you're kind of missing the boat. No, we're checking up on tools. You know what can we use to be more effective with it. I don't think it has to be rocket science or analysis by paralysis, because a lot of the things that we're doing you know can be distilled into some reasonably good decisions. But even things like GA, looking at, you know, are you, are UTM set up properly as it relates to the networks? That can be a missed.

Tye DeGrange: 23:29

Monitoring, the link structure, all that stuff kind of downstream impacts this large term like called data, which we all everyone's talking about, particularly in the last few years no-transcript, you know, looking at like getting folks trained up on data camp and other things are important to us and always trying to offer up any kind of learning. I think learning is just a big part of, like a lot of the folks on the team and the ethos of how we want to work and what we enjoy doing. As your pod says, nerd out kind of requires a little bit of that desire for data and curiosity to be like okay, does this play placement actually net out what we wanted and what kind of a timeline are we looking on on that and how do we beat that or negotiate a better rate in return? So long way to the answer, but it's a big piece of what we want to do and I think it's similar to how I think leading practitioners want to be, want to be playing in paid and performance marketing.

Dustin Howes: 24:28

Yeah, yeah, and I think it's that next level of affiliate marketing that we're evolving into, where AI is actually helping us save time so that we can evaluate more data like things like lifetime value of the affiliate sales that they're bringing in is a super valuable metric that I have never even heard about or thought about thinking about until the last year or so. So the data is getting better. Companies are more willing to open up that data to agencies like yourself and consultants so that we can dive a little bit deeper and get more granular.

Tye DeGrange: 25:10

Yeah, and Ecom contribution margins kind of exploded as a important kind of lever to look at and calculate and make into metrics, in particular on Ecom.

Dustin Howes: 25:20

Beautiful, all right. And speaking of data, I'm going to tap into our sponsor the day, and that is we can track better affiliate program performance data 350 platform integrations that they've got Like. This is not data for the merchants per se, this is for the affiliate publishers out there and vision and intuitive affiliate publisher solution seamlessly integrating affiliate conversion, data processing, attribution and integration. One robust platform here with we can track leverage and we can track expertise. They empower affiliate publishers to focus on marketing optimization and automation, eliminating manual reporting processes. With 350 plus affiliate network data resources aggregated into we can track, with further integrations into Microsoft ads, google Analytics, facebook, tiktok ads and more. They lead the digital affiliate landscape.

Dustin Howes: 26:24

Go check out Dustin howes. com slash. We can track and please support my content making habits and go check them out, all right. Moving back into our discussion, the affiliates that are in your niche you talked about D to see and hit that 20 mil mark is like your sweet spot clientele and they probably already have an established affiliate program if they're at that point. I would hope so at least. What is the right time to start for a DC brand is is one million like the right metric that you should be opening up your affiliate program to?

Tye DeGrange: 27:10

I think total total revenue a million is not a bad early days starting point for DC com brand. I would want to see you know reasonably healthy conversion rate given the relative competitors. I think a reasonably good a OV given the relative competitors I think. I think something often overlooked is like retention Are they getting, are they getting, return buyers? To some extent it, and that obviously ties directly to LTV that you mentioned earlier. I think that I mentioned this a little bit before, but being able to show that you've stood up paid marketing. Paid marketing is kind of a new growth loop to stand up for business and it's a decent lift. And so once you dip your toe into that Google meta in particular meta water water, because it's more the man creation versus demand capture that is when I think you can start to consider affiliate marketing. Not everyone agrees with me on this topic, but I think that it's a pretty good signal to see that up running, working reasonably well. It kind of bodes well for as a validator for affiliate in my view.

Dustin Howes: 28:30

Okay, gotcha, and that's a good transition. Like marketing channels, I'm always preaching the concept of affiliate should not be your first marketing channel that you should be tapping into. You should absolutely be converting better on your website. You should have an email drip campaigns. What's your first five like in your mind, as a growth marketer that you are? What do you think is is the natural progression for a D to C brand?

Tye DeGrange: 28:56

Yeah, it's boring answer but certainly ends a lot. It's debatable on stage and type and all that. But like going down the list, like getting getting the product dial, I think the thing that people often forget is, before launching the paid marketing in earnest, really having the product really well died in, dialed in, really having to some extent some of the operational features dialed in. It may sound obvious in the e-com space, but fulfillment, customer service, even some inkling of how that could be rolled out in scale, there's something to think about, I think, maybe some foundational. I have like an organic or direct opportunity hey, I've got SEO, at least the technical side maybe like at least checked off on the box and maybe some monitoring to make sure that that's not at a risk, because you wanna capture as much of that organic.

Tye DeGrange: 29:59

If you're thinking about earned-owned paid media, beginning to earn, being owned, dialed in before you really go crazy on paid, I think is a really important idea. Our team talks a lot about this as we evaluate, we've got a team dedicated to paid marketing. That is different from our affiliate team, but there's a lot of cross-learning and communication around that. But surprisingly, as much as META has its issues and faults over the last few years, it is as Mike or our COO and let our paid marketing practice likes to say, it is the world's greatest data-driven paid marketing machine. It's just a digital, it's just a powerhouse, especially if you're a newer, emerging brand, if you're looking at shopping, if you're looking at data feed, if you're looking at a lot of SKUs where there's a lot of demand already for non-branded search queries or even brand search queries, I think obviously Google is a requirement. You kind of need both of those. But yeah, and I think obviously all the rage talking about TikTok shops right now, I think that TikTok's become kind of it's not at the volume of META yet from a peer performance perspective, but if you're a consumer and you have a meaningful paid marketing budget, it probably needs to be part of the mix in some capacity. I think maybe some more home-centric brands might wanna think about Pinterest. I think they're still a play there.

Tye DeGrange: 31:37

I've heard people write off Snap, all this can be, and then they come out with their earnings calling absolutely nail it, and I've heard some brands are actually doing quite well on it. I think it's hard because you've got you list all these out, it becomes a lot to manage. You have to be very, really careful too. You have to kind of think about you don't wanna just stop the answer of these. You wanna kind of say okay, we're gonna come in with a specific approach to this channel, we're gonna come in with this channel with this mean. So it's dependent on where they're at at the stage and kind of the brand. But I think that there's certain in paid marketing you kind of have to not have on your radar, be running well and figuring out pretty quickly.

Dustin Howes: 32:24

Yeah, it is an impossible question to answer, because every company is different and every program is gonna be different. I don't like affiliate in the first three regardless. I don't think it belongs in there, always in that three to five. I mean, that's not even a maybe If you're not doing retargeting and your ad campaign if you don't know your ICP. Ideally, there's just so many aspects. I love getting your insight on what that looks like, though.

Tye DeGrange: 32:55

Yeah.

Dustin Howes: 32:56

Yeah, so you've had an incredible journey as growth marketing. What is that to you exactly?

Tye DeGrange: 33:06

Yeah, it's funny. You know our friends on the PMA were talking about the term incrementality. I always get.

Dustin Howes: 33:14

Yeah.

Tye DeGrange: 33:16

My hope is I shine light on things like okay, how are we gonna define this term? So that way everyone is on the same page and it's good practice for teams and agencies and everybody. And because you're surprised sometimes of how people define things, I think the last 10 years in particular, growth has been one of the most misnomer, misunderstood, hot button, triggering words in our industry. In some ways it's not new and other things it is, but I think of it as growth define. As you know you are, you're basically thinking about things in terms of loops as opposed to funnels. You're thinking about creating inputs and the flywheels, which is a little shout out to our newsletter. You're thinking about how to create those inputs so that you're not having to just, you know, create that over and over again with extra effort and kind of get something spinning so you can create a word of mouth. As a good example, viral growth loop is a good example of that. It's hey, I had an amazing experience at you know Chick-fil-A and so I'm gonna tell my friend about it. That's a silly example of word of mouth, viral loop. But if you think about growth, it's like how do we create these types of loops to build a business more efficiently?

Tye DeGrange: 34:44

How do we think about acquisition, which involves our world of paid marketing underneath that affiliate marketing? How do we think about retaining our users really effectively? So, are they coming back? Are they engaged? If it's, especially if it's SaaS or if it's recurring over subscription. And if it's not, you're gonna need someone to come back and repurchase if you wanna create a meaningful business. Unless you're, you know, maybe you're selling engagement rings and then you have monetization. So you've got your acquisition, you got your retention, you have your monetization. Without those three things humming and firing all cylinders, there's a lot of complexities. With each of those, you don't really have growth and I think the other thing that's interesting is that growth has become, you know, super product focus. You know I've just loved nerding out on the reforged community. It's been an amazing learning perspective and the caliber of the talent and the rigor and the thoughtfulness around it.

Tye DeGrange: 35:41

So I think they've really helped, I think lay down a lot of the foundational thinking around it and I think, came out of the last 10 years and I think other people are picking it up and I think the people that are coming into these kinds of conversations are just way more, you know, have high acumen around definitions and things like that. You know, we try to publish a lot of things that help educate. It's because we're passionate about it, but a lot of times people don't think about those big three things that go with acquisition, and I don't even, yeah, growth marketing is more. I think it's more of like there's growth and there's performance marketing. I think we sometimes get lost in definitions a little bit.

Dustin Howes: 36:27

Totally agree on that. And you're mentioning Flywheel and it's a great piece of education. I look forward to it. Getting that email from you and as I continue my education, I'm always trying to educate myself to get better in this career and what we're doing Love that. How do we connect with you and how do we subscribe to this newsletter to get more?

Tye DeGrange: 36:51

Yeah, it's so find me on LinkedIn. I'd be happy to send you the link to the newsletter. It's, I think it's Beehive the Flywheel and I can give you the exact URL, but it's tied to Grange. I'm on LinkedIn pretty heavily and then a little bit on Twitter as well, so I'd love to connect and happy to answer any questions anybody has.

Dustin Howes: 37:17

Outstanding. All right, as we wind down, I wanna drop in our lesson of the day, and to me it is this I didn't know Barnes were round until today.

Dustin Howes: 37:30

Some of them rarely, no, but in reality, I think the terminology that we all share and the passions in this industry are always subjective to everybody's opinions. Opinions are great and I think that's one of those things that makes this community great is we may argue on topics of what incrementality is and isn't, but we're all still a community. We're all still friends, no matter if we're working at opposing agencies or going after clients. I love this community aspect and you coming onto this and educating us more on it. I really appreciate your time today here.

Tye DeGrange: 38:16

Absolutely. Thank you, dustin. Thanks for all you're doing and having these and hosting and educating folks. It's I think it's awesome and appreciated. So appreciate you having me on.

Dustin Howes: 38:25

Yeah, you got it, man. My guess Thursday you're gonna find Jorge Berboz. We're gonna hang out at 1215 on Thursday Pacific Time. If you would like to get your own my personal AM checklist for my affiliate programs that I run, go hit that QR code or go to dustinhowes. com. Slash checklist and that's it for us folks. We'll see you next time and keep on recurting, take care.