Dustin Howes: 0:27

Hey folks, welcome to Affiliate Nerd out. I am your Nurtirator, dustin Howes, spreading that good word about affiliate marketing. You're going to find me here on LinkedIn Live every Tuesday and Thursdays around 12.15. And anywhere you get your podcast. So please consider subscribing my Nerd Guest of the Day, joey Asselson. There you go, you got it. You got it Hot and diggity. Yes, I didn't even give you a title. What's your official title, joey? Tell them all.

Joey Asleson: 0:59

My official title is Director of Growth for Team Bespoke.

Dustin Howes: 1:04

Director of Growth at Team Bespoke. Yes, Welcome to the Nerditorium.

Joey Asleson: 1:08

Joey, thank you, thank you, excited to be here, excited to be here, and I have to toss this out there during the prep, because your setup is great. Oh, key podcast setup.

Dustin Howes: 1:19

Well, thank you. Yeah, you know, I got a microphone, I got the headphones, I got some good lighting. Yeah, is it plugged?

Joey Asleson: 1:26

in. I don't know, but it looks great. What I hope so.

Dustin Howes: 1:30

Everybody hear me here. This is great.

Joey Asleson: 1:32

Awesome.

Dustin Howes: 1:34

Joey and I are going to be live for the next 30 to 45 minutes. Please, if you have any questions about affiliate, about influencer, about content commerce, jump on into the chat and drop a question and, without further ado, here, joey, who are you?

Joey Asleson: 1:55

So I am, by trade, just a partnership marketing professional. Been in the space for almost nine years now, which has been really really exciting. I've been, you know, loving just finding a channel in marketing that allows me to focus on my love of people but also, you know, driving performance for my brands much more exciting than putting in a bid cap and calling it a day. So started my career at CJ affiliate. So learned really the fundamentals there, hopped in right out of college and then went over to the brand side for a number of years and just was really excited to kind of learn more about the marketing mix and how the work that I was doing at CJ was fitting into everything. So joined a company called Swanson Health Products and was there for a few years overseeing their affiliate as well as several other channels, and then took a leap into B2B, which is kind of where content reared its head again. It's tough to get content partners to talk about ingestibles.

Joey Asleson: 2:56

So it was fun to kind of reengage this audience and a different group of publishers selling a software and focusing on that group, so assisted in launching their reseller referral program and their affiliate programs there, before hopping on over to Team Bespoke, because then I got a narrative selling software.

Dustin Howes: 3:16

So you've found your career path to get back into the product. So why that? I feel like everybody's going the opposite direction? Right now, with as much AI as coming into play and B2B software is hot, why go the opposite?

Joey Asleson: 3:33

way. So I mean the B2B software space. It was a lot of fun but I just felt really siloed and I had kind of had that feeling a little bit on the brand side, especially for a large part of this being through the pandemic. On the brand side I kind of found my peers and counterparts at our conferences and gatherings and without those I was like I was real alone at Sprout and so the team was wonderful.

Joey Asleson: 3:56

But I felt like I was at a rapid growth stage in my career and was looking for what was next and going back kind of onto the retail side of thing and the agency side of things. Things allowed me to touch more programs, to learn more, to kind of stay up to date on all of the trends, and so that's a large part of one just kind of diversifying my day to day, but also finding some counterparts and think of it that I can chat with every day and then, obviously, continued learning.

Dustin Howes: 4:24

Well, it's good that you have that self-awareness and that you're doing what you love and getting back into the verticals that you want to be a part of, and also that concept of not necessarily a startup phase where you guys are. Maybe you are in that, but just having that smaller company feel just feels so much more at home for me. I think you feel the same.

Joey Asleson: 4:48

It does, yeah, yeah, I mean I report directly into the founders and have that relationship and it just is a place that made me feel very like a part of, almost like a family, but also somebody that's able to influence decisions and have a say, and that's just been really enjoyable to collaborate and move teams forward.

Dustin Howes: 5:08

Yeah Well, speaking of great collaborations, that's how we got to meet each other a couple of years back, when I was at COVID and you at Sprout. There, we had a good connection and that's why you're on this episode today, because you're good people. I've always enjoyed your energy and your expertise, so really excited to get you in here and into this meritorium. If you want to know more about Joey, I dropped in the chat a link to his profile, so go on in there and get that. If you would like to be in Joey's seat, come be a guest. Go to dustinhowes. com, slash nerd and drop your application in today. I would love to speak to anybody that wants to nerd out about affiliate. All right, joey, let's talk about Be Spoke and what you guys are doing out there and who you're serving.

Joey Asleson: 6:04

Yeah. So Team Be Spoke is a digital partnership marketing consulting agency. I don't always like to say affiliate, because the work that we do has gone really just beyond kind of those traditional tracking links and we've really found a new way to take an overarching view of our clients partnerships in the digital space and kind of optimizing a variety of different channels. So we mainly focus on emerging and startup brands, which is where our founders have their passion and where we have found our passion as well. It's really great to help these up and coming companies make an impact in a space that is a little bit more nuanced and sometimes considered confusing by some, and so we've really focused there and we do a wide variety of different services. So we even we have celebrity seating offerings, pr offerings, content commerce management. We also oversee a few of our clients, influencer programs and then kind of that traditional affiliate approach as well.

Joey Asleson: 7:09

So we do quite a few and we've really, over the past year, veered a bit more into kind of that like PR space, which we found can be married really, really well to the affiliate channel and the skill set that we've been using over a number of years, and then kind of translating it into this new promotional method.

Dustin Howes: 7:28

Gotcha, gotcha, and so you've seen them transition and maybe you were hired on to be an extra arm of a certain facet and like an expert in this field rather than that field, and there you guys seem to be expanding your reach by your offerings that you have out there. You guys had a start in one spot, but like where is the future going for you guys? And like what's where's the most activity for each one of those channels, even though they're doing a little bit overlapping? But where's the future in this?

Joey Asleson: 8:05

Yeah, so I mean we definitely have kind of that traditional affiliate partnership down, but the way that we've tackled the content commerce space has been really big and we've been tackling it through a variety of ways, and so part of the reason I like to say it's like more of a partnership marketing consulting agency versus an affiliate consulting agency is that we don't necessarily always use the affiliate channel to necessarily amplify these relationships and they definitely can. These methods can be done through there, but we also run direct but we run CPC and EPC campaigns and we've really diversified. The way that we're able to get promotional coverage for our clients with a lot of these major publications and then a secondary tier of that is definitely kind of this influencer space as it continues to become more prominent and there's a lot more focus on influencer tools and coverage. Especially with the rise of TikTok, I know that brands have really struggled to get their organic content highly promoted there, and so now there's a new need to kind of bring in these creators in order to either repurpose that content or use them and they're ranking with the algorithm to get in front of it, and so really focusing on those two buckets I think will be very key like an expansion.

Joey Asleson: 9:23

So continuing to stay on top of those trends that are enabling, you know, strong content commerce relationships. You know kind of figuring out ways to navigate around, you know last click attribution and other ways to support these types of relationships. And then finally, I think, influencers it's here to stay. I think we always have known that and you know, while we have TikTok now, give it two years, we'll have a new one, and then it'll be a new learning experience. So I think that's something that's always going to be having to grow on our side of things and continue to do that.

Dustin Howes: 9:56

Oh, great, great. So let's take a step back and explain what content commerce is for the audience and where you guys have found the sweet spot in what this is and how it evolved from either affiliate or how affiliates like adapting to it.

Joey Asleson: 10:16

Yeah, so content commerce to me I kind of you know to like dumb it down because it is a little confusing, but I always look at content, as you know, editorial content or pure editorial content, and those are going to be like larger overarching stories, maybe it's a founder message, etc.

Joey Asleson: 10:33

And then you're going to have your shoppable or shopping content, which I think kind of encompasses content commerce, but I think calling it shopping content, well, basically the same thing is a little more straightforward, and so that would be content with a shopping focus or a conversion driver, and so it's really great. So it's a focus, more so on brand awareness. But we take that affiliate spin on it and make it a moment as well, because I think affiliate, regardless of what method we're taking, it is always a channel that is looked at to potentially drive sales, what's more exactable. And so this content commerce set up these listicles. They've been around for a long time, but those are really what we're focusing on here. So you know just to kind of like pull ahead, like as we think about the holidays, like gift guides perfect example of content commerce and shoppable content that's aimed at driving conversions as well as brand awareness, so it would have that conversion driver in it, rather than purely being more so about a story and kind of that's the way I look at.

Dustin Howes: 11:37

I don't know if that's correct. No, no, I like the definition of it, so it's a more convenient way to shop and for the end users, you're getting the content and making that a clickable piece of content. Essentially. Am I getting it? Okay, exactly, fantastic, so evolving into that. You guys are not in a traditional last click or like a CPA basis for the, the folks that you're working with, and I want to get into this rise of CPC, which is a very interesting concept. Traditionally, affiliate marketing wants to work off of sale and, at the very least, a lead and like the click is is kind of a. Oh, it's a little bit scary here to be working on clicks. Tell us more about what, how you guys are finding success in this space.

Joey Asleson: 12:33

Yeah, so I mean I think you know, kind of to go back like we do work with majority of our clients on a last click basis, and I think that's what makes the CPC and EPC so important at this time.

Joey Asleson: 12:45

I think you know we've all, and those that are in the industry, you know there's always been talk of multi-touch attribution, splitting commissions amongst partners, and I think it's a slow adoption.

Joey Asleson: 12:56

I think it's very difficult. Not all partners can work in that way and I think overall change, especially change when it comes to money, takes time and I think kind of dividing up those commissions is making that confusing and difficult for brands. But because that last click is such like a strong industry standard, these CPC campaigns allow for these content partners especially, and also EPC, the same thing, you know, just kind of different setups, but they allow for these partners to promote brands without necessarily always having that fear that they're not going to be that last click in that attribution window. And so it I find it to actually, you know, strengthen relationships, saying like, hey, you may be creating the shopping content and you may, at the end of your experience, have a software partner or another volume, a coupon deal, a loyalty partner that's intervening and taking that sale from them and majority of programs aren't set up to be splitting these commissions.

Joey Asleson: 13:50

It's complicated. There's a lot of pieces on the back end. What does it look like for loyalty? It just is a bigger and different beast to manage. And so with these tools, you know, we're able to set big caps and get content to be created in a way that the publications are still feeling as though they're earning something for the efforts that they're driving and they also still do earn commission. You know they obviously are last click here and there, but it does kind of put that safety net and allow them to have a little bit more confidence in the partnership without having to worry about it. I mean, we can raise commission rates all we want every day to cover the cost, but if they're not that last click, it's not always going to happen okay, okay, um, interesting concept.

Joey Asleson: 14:31

So you're saying you're working with them on a cpc, but they also get paid maybe a much lower cpa on top of uh compared to your other partners yep and that's where, like this benefit of this e p c comes through and that's like an earnings per click model and that is also, again to you know, add that additional value to the publication or publisher and so with that we essentially guarantee that they'll earn a certain amount of commission for the clicks that are driven.

Joey Asleson: 14:58

And so with this we can leave our cpa at a high level and we'll put a cap in on how much can go through. But essentially, whatever clicks they drive, we offer, like, whatever the differential is, they should earn x dollars for this number of clicks. Then we will remove the commission from that total and pay the difference. If that's awesome, yeah, I think a tiered kind of setup. So we guarantee they'll earn x dollar amount for these clicks. But also it alleviates some stress on like the advertiser, in the sense that, like, we're able to still take it out in that commission in terms of our payment for that yeah, yeah, man, that's pretty brilliant.

Dustin Howes: 15:38

I mean two big uh success parts of this, this concept, uh, the first is you're driving your e p c numbers up. Um, the, the partners that are joining your program are going to see a higher e p c on whatever platform that you're on. That's going to be more appealing to them. So that number going up naturally, uh just spot on and great. And then the second part of this is, uh, you're opening up a new level of opportunities. So, uh, oftentimes when you're trying to recruit affiliates and you're just on a cpa basis, uh, they say, no, we need some kind of sponsorship. Well, now we're, we've got this other carrot we can dangle with the cpc. They might be interested in that, and I love this theory here yeah, it's, it's worked out really well.

Joey Asleson: 17:17

It's worked out for, like our book of business especially well. You know, as I mentioned before, we work on a lot of emerging brands and with the way that content has been performing and like the traffic and the impressions that they're getting. But because that like last click isn't always there, we're seeing some of these like sponsored posts, you know, go up to 10K, 15k, and that's really tough to, you know, make that choice when you're a small business and you have, you know the options, like do we funnel this 15K into, like our Amazon spend or do we take it and get some, you know, brand awareness, maybe some shopping content, et cetera. But it's a really tough choice to make and I think it's important that brands have, you know, and always that like full marketing mix, and so I think this allows for them to be more strategic with that flat dollar amount, while still kind of holding on to that performance model that we're so used to in the affiliate space.

Dustin Howes: 18:12

Yeah, that's. That's super smart and I love it that it's for emerging brands, but I mean this could be for even any level. Brands could could adapt into this. It's just a smart strategy and I like the way you guys are going about it. I would assume you have to have the right affiliate platform to be working on this kind of model, because not every one of them out there is really intuitive to this kind of structure. If you will Like, what are your summer some of your favorite picks here for brands working on on this?

Joey Asleson: 18:48

So I definitely feel as though there's there's just a few pieces that I think are key and that would be like the technology behind it, the ease of setup the event tracking but, you know, in full transparency, not not all the networks are set up in this way, but I don't think that should be like a hindrance. I'm running a EPC campaign right now with a very large and well known fashion publication and we are taking care of this with like quick and dirty math and emails, and so, like I don't want, I don't think technology needs to necessarily be a hindrance for it, because, also, that technology can raise up the costs. You're only going to be running a few of these you know, here and there.

Joey Asleson: 19:32

So like to add on an additional like action tracker for CPC campaigns, additional network fees, et cetera. It will get to the point where that's probably necessary. But everybody's still very early on in these stages and this is very new still that I think a lot of it can be done through direct communication, which is really you know kind of how I've been doing it, and even working on custom packages. Maybe it wasn't always in you know this publications like Wheelhouse, but they're open to hearing more about it, and so there's there's a lot of different options. So I don't want to like necessarily give a network recommendation. Most networks are able to handle like a CPC campaign, but it would have to be done at the point of integration and it would change the way that things are, and so like I don't want to be, like I don't want you know it just feels like a lot, in my opinion a couple of campaigns that could be very fruitful, but you know too many, too many cooks in the kitchen at that point to get just one thing out the door.

Dustin Howes: 20:30

For sure, and maybe even the solution is I mean, you could work on two networks, so it would be a little messy. You know what You're right? Like I hate. I hate complication, like simplicity is so key, but maybe even, like you know, doing web hooks for to help with the automation of this and make your workflow a little bit better Might be in that mix. Go ahead, and what were you going to say, joey? Totally.

Joey Asleson: 20:57

There's definitely like third party tools. A tool that I've used often is Link B, and so if people have been at conferences I'm sure they've seen their team running around wonderful group of people, they're great. And so they've created essentially like a bidding portal, and so this will allow brands to go through and load in essentially a pitch. They're able to set certain settings if they wanted to be dedicated to content, if they wanted to be listicle inclusions, and then the brand can go in and set a bid cap and then also what they want to bid for CPC, and then this pitch gets tossed into the larger marketplace of all these brands and you can pick who you send your pitch to.

Joey Asleson: 21:40

And so this is, you know, kandey Noss, all these properties I've had campaigns picked up through there and then they spend and they'll drive traffic to the article or whatever the inclusion is at that CPC rate and at the end of the campaign you know they either hit the CPC rate or hit their mark. And then you are at your bid cap where you can repurpose those funds, add more on. But it's another way that you can kind of track and handle those payments and I know you know there are worries about running directly and kind of having those direct conversations and not having that third party kind of mediator in there, especially when you're offering, you know, flat spend etc. So Link B has been a great tool. I'm sure there's a lot more coming up. That's one that I've been using recently. So there are other options outside of the network and running direct.

Dustin Howes: 22:29

Gotcha Smart and I love that concept thinking outside the box. This industry is getting better tools every single day out there for affiliate managers to use and be successful. So you're just stressing the importance of getting out there and educating yourself to what else is going out there, and you know. Speaking of education, I better think our sponsor here, performance Marketing Manager. Do you know everything I know about this industry? I don't think so.

Dustin Howes: 23:07

Well, you're in luck because I jammed everything I know into an eight-hour training course going over fundamentals and advanced tactics that affiliate managers need to know to succeed. On top of that, you're going to get instant access to me and my community in group coaching sessions, including hot seats and talking about your program. So, no matter where you are in your career in digital marketing, you need new tactics for the affiliate channel to grow. I'm going to give you your money back if you don't like what you see. Go to performancemarketingmanagercom and get started now. Performancemarketingmanagercom and switching gears here. Joey, working with PR agencies this is a big part of what you guys are doing and that's not a space I'm very attuned with. Tell us what you guys are doing and how it kind of overlaps in that affiliate realm as well.

Joey Asleson: 24:02

Yeah so obviously we got some trade secrets, so cancer, everything but there are different ways to look at what PR teams are doing and how that can better influence the decisions that we're making in the affiliate space and the partnership space. I have always felt like kind of that traditional affiliate and PR relationship has really been about whether that be new product launches, kind of more on that e-commerce side of the PR where they're talking about the why behind a new product et cetera. And I think there's better ways that we can be working brand stories into content and especially now that content commerce is being picked up and performance is coming through these articles et cetera, I think there's a lot of ways that affiliate and agency teams can repurpose what's being created and brand messages to drive further inclusions of their products, and so it can be kind of a larger broad appeal, whether that be again like those products, but also it can be giving initiatives. It can be founder moments, it can be celebrity moments and one of my clients, Megan Markle, is always in her jeans and everybody loves it and I get a simple image of it and I send it out and I work with the PR team to identify if that was a gifted thing, whatever what the product is, and then I work this out and it's included everywhere. It's on ET the next day, it's in Vogue the next day, and you start to see these things and you realize that we can take kind of these PR what would have been a normal PR moment and make it a shopping moment.

Joey Asleson: 25:48

I think we've all seen an article on the web of this makeup loved by X, Y and Z, and those perform very strongly and brands are very interested in that type of coverage and so are consumers.

Joey Asleson: 26:01

So there's a lot more that can be done and they can also assist in just crafting the overall brand message that I think there just needs to be stronger communication, and so we do that by one, like conversating with their teams, learning what's on their roadmap, what's on their brand calendar.

Joey Asleson: 26:17

How can we repurpose this to our own initiatives? If it's about new colors this season and they have a brand new color palette, that doesn't seem exciting and affiliate immediately it's like, okay, there's a bunch of new colors of the same item, but what I do with it is now it is the colors of fall. Here are the top selling articles of this brand new rebrand for this season's trendiest color, and I can send that out and then I get a bunch of coverage on this season's trendiest colors and my client's brand new color swatches and it's a list of shopping articles and just crafting those different types of messages into how you're communicating with your partners has really changed all that and also the brands really enjoy it. It's not only a shopping feature, but it also explains more about what's going on with their brand, with those storytelling moments that you're able to pull from it.

Dustin Howes: 27:10

Excellent and it seems like a trend in the affiliate realm at least. The PR agencies are coming into the affiliate realm and vice versa. Why do you think that trend is so heavy right now? Is it just too easy with the overlap and you make it some great points with like there's content out there that we should be sharing with our partners, but why this industry trend now?

Joey Asleson: 27:37

So I think it's like the drive for numbers. I mean, I think it's almost the other way, in that affiliate agencies on our side of kind of the marketing and all of those pieces and communications we have so many metrics and now, as shopping, commerce and these different things become more popular, I have a lot of metrics on engagement for a lot of the same publications that a brand's PR team is already reaching out to, and so I'm able to tell you like okay, well, like this was a great, like collab, and it's so great that you were able to get all these things included, but I can tell you like this was maybe a waste of time.

Joey Asleson: 28:17

Like one person clicked on it. Like we should be focusing our efforts elsewhere. Like our brands or these products aren't resonating with this publication. So then, like maybe we hold back on pushing further PR pieces to them and we focus someplace else where their audience seems to resonate more strongly with the brand. But this is details that.

Joey Asleson: 28:33

PR agencies don't have traditionally or haven't had access to. And it's metrics we've always had access to and we're very familiar at looking at and that we're analyzing every day. And while we're making different types of strategic decisions, like those same metrics can be repurposed to make different types. Like I work all the time with commerce publications or media publications and I see like this is a great inclusion. It's a lot of great brands but I'm not seeing a lot of clicks on it. You know, maybe I need to diversify my efforts and find like a different avenue. Like now I can tell who's engaging with these storytelling pieces or content in general.

Joey Asleson: 29:12

And another thing is so you can marry PR stories to your own. I mean you can have PR if they're gonna be running something with publication. You can kind of get behind that at the same time and go to the other side of the business and kind of say, hey, like we know that you're gonna be running these stories and you've been in contact with this brand. Like let's make a shopping post about it as well. I'm like link to it. Then we can do the commissions here.

Dustin Howes: 29:33

Awesome, awesome double dip, and I love that idea. Yeah, awesome, I've always thought it'd be a great idea and I am doing this to some extent at this point is what clients that I take on, I become affiliates of theirs as well, so I'm generating content. So if I'm launching a program, I'm gonna be one of their first affiliates out there and build content around them and what they're doing and maybe there's room for that in that space as well. You're just like throwing those ideas, mixing worlds, and maybe it's a conflict of interest in itself sometimes, but I think if you're driving good value in one way and then a secondary way, you're only providing more value for your clients. So I like the way you guys are thinking about things in that space, switching gears a little bit.

Dustin Howes: 30:27

I don't know much about the editorial value in working with editors. Traditionally my outreach has gone out as an affiliate manager to editors and I've had a very limited amount of success getting ahold of them, getting responses from them, and I've always seemed to run into certain content sites that have editorial integrity and it can be a big hurdle to get over to get our brand listed on whatever content they have existing. Tell us what you're doing with editorial and kind of your strategy about this.

Joey Asleson: 31:05

Yeah, this is definitely something that also comes up for me. I mean, I think, just in general, if you're gonna be a cast in like a wide net and emailing a lot of editors, expect, like the second you have signed, to hear a thousand pings about offices not doing this. Don't work on Fridays. You know a bunch of different things In my next life.

Dustin Howes: 31:22

I'm coming back and I'm being an editor because like you think so, you think, so, you think, so, you're doing great things, All right, so love that, but I think you know, just building relationships.

Joey Asleson: 31:32

I think some of my best like communications are send a few cold emails and something will eventually, you know, catch their fancy. I think it's always important to remember and you know it's been talked about all the time Like their emails are just full of things.

Joey Asleson: 31:45

And so just because, like an email is ignored, I don't you got to kind of got to get like that thick skin with it again and like it's not necessarily that like they didn't have you know they weren't interested in it, it's just it's not their focus right now. You know, I've even, you know, kind of taken some time to like meet with content commerce editors and writers and freelancers to just kind of do some like learnings, and I found out that, like some of these writers are tasked with like 150 pieces of content for a month to like together and just like shopping articles, and so I would say, continue to email. You never know when they're going to get one and they go back and search for their email for like a call up for a product that aligns with what they're talking about, right then. So consistency and just that continued outreach is super key For those publications that have that editorial focus. Those are a little bit more difficult to get in front of, but I think that's where kind of implementing the seeding and gifting strategy comes into play, and that's something that I found success with.

Joey Asleson: 32:51

It's not like, hey, I don't care if you want to like write about it, I don't care if you did this. I just think this product's really cool. I'm going to mail it to you and you go from there and you know it doesn't have to be so forced. It can just be building awareness. I mean, how do I ask you people here about new products that they want to test?

Joey Asleson: 33:07

Another thing with editorial coverage and those that are super focused on it send some other places that that content's been included, Like show that other publications find this to be editorial Great great and you know, make a case that like, hey, this is trending, here's a slug moment, here's a TikTok that like went viral about you know, this great new makeup or this great new pair of jeans that everybody's loving. So really focus on kind of you're never going to break through having conversations around rates or anything like that. It's almost like you hit a wall until you're able to either send the product and just be like, do it with it what you want, I don't care, donate it, it doesn't matter. Just like somebody just needs to touch and feel the fabric you know, or looking and seeing like hey, this has become wildly popular elsewhere. Your team may not be aware of this, but like XYZ's celebs are using this and they had it in their posts.

Joey Asleson: 34:01

You know so and so on. This TV show was wearing these sunglasses and we think you know they're really cool, they got a great price. And like they're also running a sale or something. So thinking ways around to kind of like build that knowledge base without really like asking for. So like you're almost at this point, being an editorial person yourself and just like you're creating the content about why this is cool and hot and that sending it for others.

Dustin Howes: 34:26

Yeah, you bring up some really killer points there. I think the most success I've ever had with an editor, or any editors in that realm, is getting a relationship with the affiliate manager first and having them make the introduction that's the easiest way in their inbox to a response. I think the other option is if you have something so unique that they don't have content on it and a product that is like top of the line market right now. Those are easier ways to get in than just trying to get on a list and like that's 10 deep right. That's the thing.

Joey Asleson: 35:03

Yeah, and with that too, like you know, when you make conversation with like that content commerce editor and it is an editorial driven publication, ask them what's on their roadmap.

Joey Asleson: 35:12

Like maybe now is not the time. Like, are they gonna be? Like, hey, we're refreshing like a guide on this and we're looking for some like great products Okay, but like, hey, I have kind of like a market leader in it. You all haven't talked about it or really tested it, but like I know that this is coming up. So being more strategic about that and just focusing on what they already have planned will allow to kind of create those spaces where you may be able to squeeze something in and once something's done once, then it keeps happening.

Joey Asleson: 35:41

Let me see that success. Yeah, and sometimes you can throw money at the problem and get that content squeezed in there, right Everybody says they're purely editorial, but for some other reason they still have a minimum commission rate and if you're below the competition at lower set. You know, you just kind of got to like read through the wording on something.

Dustin Howes: 36:00

This is still a business at the end of the day and whatever, even if the editors aren't a big fan. But the business development team says we've got to do this, they're under an obligation to get it done. So money will talk in those kinds of situations. If you have a budget and one of my favorite portions of that is whoever's on that first serve is most valuable on those monster keywords that you have so if you go and wiggle your way in and throw money at the problem, you can work your way up there on basis of not a commission structure but upfront fees. Yep, beautiful, all right, joey, switching gears here, it is that time to go out there and defend your posts. So I brought up a little something. That's nothing super embarrassing, it's just an old spot from when you were on Sprout and you were talking about a closer look at what brands need to know during about COVID-19. This is not evergreen content. At this point, like no, no, you're sold fingers crossed.

Joey Asleson: 37:12

This is not evergreen content.

Dustin Howes: 37:15

It really is just like a fingers crossed. But with you guys, my question here is when you come up with this, you have no idea if it's going to be evergreen or not. And, like you were just throwing up there, like, how much emphasis do you have on the future when an article like this goes out?

Joey Asleson: 37:33

I mean this one, that article. Like I'm kind of glad you brought that up because it did just remind me Sprout had done some of the really the coolest things with even just working with like the CDC and social monitoring around different trends. And this is something that you know we set up as well to kind of just show what was going on with COVID and people's sentiments around it and like what people were talking about and just kind of like why or what they needed. I mean Sprout even made decisions on this because they saw that people were like unsure of when businesses were opening close. I'm like that's a really great tactic to get people to get a social media management software. Like you got to talk to them and you maybe didn't before, but I think the main piece on that was the tools that were used to measure and monitor, sent messages.

Dustin Howes: 38:24

So now.

Joey Asleson: 38:24

I feel like I'm like giving Sprout a little showdown here, but yeah, they do some really cool stuff with like social listening and brand sentiments and it is wildly specific to geolocation and all those pieces it's really cool and a great tool for brands to have in like their wheelhouse.

Joey Asleson: 38:43

It also can be used for different things, like seeing where COVID is on the rise, where people are talking about it, where is like an outbreak, what are people's concerns on. But I think you got to take out the crisis of it and look back. Okay, well, like, let's do that for like competitors of different brands.

Dustin Howes: 38:59

So if you think it has a little bit of evergreen content.

Joey Asleson: 39:01

You just kind of got to spin it.

Dustin Howes: 39:03

Really really Okay, that's good enough. It is just such a wild world that we're in post COVID era that we're in and looking back on. That kind of content is always hilarious to me, and I'm so interested in concepts of like how is that going to hold up in the end?

Joey Asleson: 39:24

And it will be interesting. I mean, I'm personally I'm still surprised that like remote work has held on as long as it has. Really, I mean I love it, Don't get me wrong. It's kind of, I think like had the pandemic lasted like a year, year and a half, like shorter, we would all be in our desks right now.

Dustin Howes: 39:44

Okay.

Joey Asleson: 39:45

That's fair.

Dustin Howes: 39:47

I think that's fair. I think there is a transition and a movement moving forward. I see the job market closing down and especially what we're doing, and people having to go back in the office, which is sad, because I thought it was here to stay. I'm never going back, I'm not taking a job and obviously kidding me, get out of here.

Joey Asleson: 40:07

Yeah.

Dustin Howes: 40:09

Those days are done, man. All right, let's wrap this thing up and talk about holiday content prep. What do you got scheduled for? What you guys are doing with your clients and like, how should you be thinking about holiday prep?

Joey Asleson: 40:21

Yeah, especially in terms of, you know, just prepping for like the content. I mean, hopefully everybody's already started, but I think right now is like the key time to start communicating gift guides, holiday inclusions, all of that's coming up, you know, probably mid next month, some guides already done. But I think, like my recommendations in terms of like preparing, reach out to those publications, start those conversations, discuss rates, focus on minimum rates. You know EPAs are going to be going up during this time period. You're going to be fighting for organic conclusions if you don't have that flat spend. So make sure that your commission rates are optimized per kind of what your publication recommendations are. They're forthcoming. They'll be very happy to tell you you need to raise a 10%, so they will be very forthcoming with what is competitive. So really focusing on that. And then also take a minute work with your brand.

Joey Asleson: 41:19

This is another great time to also work with your PR teams, or your brand's PR teams. Have discussions around some of their own internal gifting moments. What are they going to be pushing through? Their CRM campaigns, their email campaigns, understand what products they see perform really well during these times and start to curate kind of your own gift guides for these publications. I know I've already scoured the internet and I know what the top gift guides were for 2023 and 2022. And I'm working with our entire portfolio of clients for everybody to select, you know, those products that fall into those categories. Just trying to do as much work for these content sites ahead of the game as possible has been great and then also focus on kind of blocking in those packages.

Joey Asleson: 42:04

If you are going to be investing flat spend into it, get those done very soon. We'll sell out based on like top converting first, so and that sticker price doesn't always stay or change for it. So get in early. Get in some of the top performers. Figure out what works well. Again, these content commerce partners are great across the board. They really are in tune with editorial, but also kind of this affiliate business side of things. So lean on them as well. But yeah, it's crunch time. It's horrifying.

Dustin Howes: 42:38

I mean it's not crunch time to you. You got time. You're no lawyer, beth.

Joey Asleson: 42:41

I like to think my crunch time comes now, because then I get like this weird week of like nothing's happening, because no one's running sales. Everything's already booked. I recommend it for anyone who always has to work on Black Friday. Work ahead and have like a lull week when everything is done. Images are sent over, assets completed and relaxed.

Dustin Howes: 43:04

Now you are missing out on that procrastination buzz, bro, Like that is a high that you can't pay for, right? Unless you get you wait until last minute.

Joey Asleson: 43:17

Okay, you know what, for those adrenaline junkies that like gets people really excited playing with their clients' money and want to book things off now. You have like another three weeks just relax, Everything's fine.

Dustin Howes: 43:28

There you go. That's the spirit, that's what I wanted to hear. So you're doing all this research. What's the next Tickle Me, elmo? What's the next Beanie Baby for this season coming up?

Joey Asleson: 43:41

I don't know.

Dustin Howes: 43:42

I don't know yet.

Joey Asleson: 43:43

It's going to be like tough to tell, but I'm thinking, you know people are getting out and about. I think fashion and leisure kind of had its moment. I'm thinking like the next big thing this holiday season is going to be closed to wear outside the home. I just I got like this set Also Advent calendars. I don't know what it is, but everybody wants an Advent calendar. What? Yes, it's like top on like all the publications. I'm talking to Advent calendars. So like you want to put wine in the little boxes great. You want to put makeup in the little boxes great. You want to just like create something that's kind of like one Great People are loving that.

Dustin Howes: 44:23

That's weird, it's so weird, but. I guess trends do seem to come back and Advent calendars were so hot 70 years ago.

Joey Asleson: 44:33

Hey, I loved my Advent calendar. It's like it was a great thing. I loved my daily chocolate. Now that I'm an adult, it comes with a daily little bottle of wine.

Dustin Howes: 44:43

I don't know what one I like more. What's next level of shit right there. All right Joey. All right Joey. Let's wrap this up.

Joey Asleson: 44:50

How do people get ahold of you. You can email me, joey oslason at team bespoke, and that email address is right on my LinkedIn. Otherwise, feel free to use the link in the chat and connect with me directly there.

Dustin Howes: 45:01

Fantastic, so smart. Like people really forget how useful the LinkedIn connect with me button is, having an email address that is actually working. I can't tell you how many hot nails and G-Mails I see by personal emails Like don't do that, just update this. Everybody listening right now. Go update your LinkedIn connect with me button, joey. Thanks for your time here, buddy. Next week we're going to have Tyler Ryan talk about lifetime value numbers I'm super excited about that and Stephanie Robbins come by and talking about Amazon associates and how you can associate that with your affiliate program. There are going to be some hot topics in there. If you want 15 minutes with me, go to DustinHallinscom, pa, and I will point you in the right direction. Outside of that, joey, really appreciate you being here. So good to hang out with you again and appreciate your time, bud.

Joey Asleson: 46:01

Amazing. Well, thank you so much, dustin, appreciate it.

Dustin Howes: 46:03

All right, We'll see you out there, guys. This will begin with Mel Govencor. Thanks guys.